INTERVIEW WITH THE HONORABLE LENI BINDER,
SULLIVAN COUNTY LEGISLATOR, DISTRICT 7
CHAIR, SOCIAL & COMMUNITY MENTAL HYGIENE SERVICES COMMITTEE
CHAIR, HEALTH COMMITTEE
CO-CHAIR, INTERGENERATIONAL SERVICES COMMITTEE, with Tom Rue

October 8, 1996
Monticello, New York

TR: That's true.

LB: And they can throw someone from CACHE in also.

TR: So, does that bring up an issue of case management, or who's in charge?

LB: Basically, I think it's going to be case management. The people I've spoken to in all the Departments and so on, and we have been to a few other counties, looking at their programs - we were up at Oswego, talked to people from Chemung, and so on - or we are meeting others. And this is with all the department heads, they were all in on this. This is not a back room discussion. And there is no plan that we can adopt. We, at one time, had a Human Services umbrella and politics forced it to disband. I don't even want to get into that discussion. But we really have to have, and I think your very right, the key word or the buzz word if you will is effective case management, and to do that you need somebody with the ultimate authority over all three commissioners beyond the County Manager, who really isn't his job to micromanage, if you will I mean, and it would be somebody who would then be answerable to the County Manager, then ultimately the Legislators. I'm hands-on Legislator. But, say the person who is chairing this committee after me and say there are different people chairing the three committees, there is no continuity and there is no connections. I'm in the unique situation now. I've actually been introduced as the chairperson of the Human Services Committee when we don't even have one. So, obviously, in peoples' minds there is a connection between all these groups.

TR: You got three separate subcommittees, is what your saying?

LB: We have three committees, three separate commissioners. They are all autonomous.

TR: Right. So, are you envisioning a Human Services Commissioner?

LB: I don't like the word Commissioner, because you have Commissioners. But, we are going to play the semantics game, yes. How about a Director of Human Services? I don't know what they are going to call it. The day I sat down, when I spoke to all the Commissioners, I told them where I was going. I've worked with Jake Romo for many years, since he's been here. I was on call before that. I've been on the OMR/DD Subcommittee in the County. I have a developmentally disabled daughter.

TR: How old is she?

LB: Twenty-six. She will be 26 next month. She is at New Hope, and that's why I sit on their Board of Directors. But I came into Human Services, or Advocacy, if you will, because my daughter was just on the brink of designations; they didn't have them 25 years ago. If you weren't profoundly retarded or deaf, dumb or just one dimensional learning disabled, they didn't know what to do. I was a teacher; I taught high school. It was sheer frustration that led me into advocacy. I remember going into the school and saying, "I don't know what's wrong but something is," and nobody could direct me where to go or what to do.

TR: I'm reminded of, you may not remember this, the first time we met was at Mr. Willy's. You gave me a business card that said "Leni Binder, Concerned Person."

LB: Yes, that's right. It was before the campaign. But, that was it. You want me to put alphabet letters afterwards? That scares people away. But as an advocate I wasn't there as a professional, I was there as somebody who has been knocked on the ropes, knocked out of the ring a few times, and was really trying to help people steer through the system.

TR: I really like that card.

LB: I haven't changed it. I will probably just put on the bottom of it when I reprint it "Legislator." And, it's not even an embossed card. I mean it was just that I'm interested and I've worked on Woodstock for many years. So, people think it refers to, you know, that activity.

TR: "Concerned person," about Woodstock?

LB: Yes. But, basically, as I suppose it means, you know - my husband says concerned person means sucker. But, yeah, when I thought of what to put on the card, because when I was an advocate and everybody was saying, "Well, so how do I reach you?" I had been curator of the museum and I had a card printed up then, and for the Bicentennial Commission I had a card printed up, because I co-chaired them. So I thought if I don't put something on the card, people don't know what you are doing. They look at the card six months down the line and they go, "What was this person supposed to help me with? Why do I have their card?" And that's a flashback. It doesn't say any alphabet letters or so on. And then it doesn't scare the people who need help.

TR: An all-purpose card.

LB: Yeah, or they think that they have to pay me for my advice. So, when you start putting titles, they go "Oh." If I call them and I don't have the money to pay but I need help. So, there was another reason for doing it that way. It was humorous, it expressed my feeling. But it was also to have people not be afraid to ask for help. That's the whole key, you know. We have a lot of ways to help people. A lot of people don't know how to access the help that is available or they are intimidated by it. And sometimes the agencies that are supposed to help them, put them down or are not, as the term is, "user friendly." And we know that's true of agencies in the County. If there's another thing I accomplished sitting here for four years, it will be to, and we are not bad-we are very good, but we have little glitches.

TR: Who's we?

LB: The County.

TR: The County as a whole?

LB: Yeah. When I say we, we are County. Yeah. I have a lot of personal glitches, but this is County.

TR: You've talked about a human services umbrella. Would you say that's your number one priority as a Legislator, in the area of Human Services?

LB: Well, probably structurally, yes. And with that, but that has to be separate from doing our daily work until we get to that point.

TR: Life goes on.

LB: Exactly. And you can't wait. It's just like you could be building your dream house or planning for it. But you can't live in a camper until then, or wait, you still have to have a roof over your head. And sometimes paying for that roof makes your dream roof take a little longer to get to.

TR: Speaking of roofs, that reminds me of our Complex here on Broadway. I don't know if you are comparing that to a camper, but it's perhaps an apt analogy.

LB: Yes, but we are getting you out of there, though.

TR: Can you tell me about that?

LB: Well, there is controversy right away. I'm hearing complaints about why do we want one centralization point. Do you want me to talk about the building first or why not satellites, from my point of view?

TR: Well, let me make a comment first about where we are. I think that physically...

LB: It's a bad choice of buildings. It's not physically good. There's mixed services in there. I don't think the people are happy. And even if it was the best, if the people weren't happy and weren't able to deliver well, it wouldn't serve it's purpose.
TR: We have worked very hard to make it as presentable and as useful, as efficient with the space, as possible. But we can only do so much with that space, because of its limitations.

LB: We know that.

TR: So, what's in the future?

LB: Well, we have approved and they are now bonding for a new building up in the Social Service complex on Infirmary Road in Liberty. That passed.

TR: Assume, you know, I have heard bits and pieces, but assume I know nothing. Just talk.

LB: Okay. What the County has decided to do, and it has passed, is, as part of a bonding issue, to construct a new building at the Liberty Complex on Infirmary Road, that would basically be housing the programs that are now in Monticello. Configuration hasn't totally been decided, and the building would have the potential to add on, if at some time more space were needed or other groups had to come in. We are not going to just be building haphazardly. Somebody is looking into the building and then when that design comes down, there will be discussions on it. There had been plans discussed before - Is it going to be ideal? Of course not. We have monetary limitations. Will there be problems with the location and transportation? I don't think many more than we have now.

TR: I think problems with transportation are unavoidable in Sullivan County.

LB: They are endemic to the County. We are in the midst of a study on transportation that the State is funding. It does not make us feel any better to tell you that every rural county still has these problems. You know that somebody else has problems don't make yours go away, and hearing about somebody in worse shape isn't any better. The satellite link on Wednesday talked about children's services. The point was made and it's very valid - that in human services, or Social Services in particular, but I think it's true of all human services, if you don't have the transportation and the services in the childcare, getting people jobs or giving them support services is useless. Their point was, of course, if you are only using the block grants and the consolidation and the work fare as a way to cut your budget, you are doomed to failure. You don't reinvest in these other aspects, such as childcare and transportation. You still only have a two-legged stool.

TR: So, is it your thought to use those monies for contracted services, or for public operated services?

LB: Okay, is it my thought? I think that's still under discussion. I think there is a reality here. Everyone talks privatize, privatize, privatize, and the gravy programs a lot of you non-for-profits go after. We are in a unique situation in the County from my point of view. I look upon Human Services probably the biggest industry.

TR: Sullivan County, or anywhere?

LB: Probably, but particularly in Sullivan County which is where I am focusing. I can't make claims for other places but I'm particularly involved with the various aspects in Sullivan County. I was born here, I was raised here, I've had my whole professional life here, aside from teaching in Rondout one year. So, it's easy for me to say "I've been on all sides, I've been a receiver with my daughter's services, I've been an advocate for many years and I understand that the non-for-profits are now becoming what businesses were. They may be not for profits but they're businesses. So, they come and complain and say "Bid this out and let the private not-for-profits do this." There is a reality factor in here and you are going to have to accept it. The whole idea of Human Services, and I don't know if you ever got to read the article I did for Steve Kurlander's paper. But it explained what Human Services were and how government got into Human Services, you know in a short paragraph, but the philosophy behind it. But the reality is, if it was profitable, other people would be doing it. So what happens is, it's always left to the government to supply the things that don't have a profitable return. The few programs we have that are cost effective and help us supply other programs are the ones other people want. We can't afford to run all the cost rating programs unless we keep our hands on some of the others that do generate some money.

TR: For example, it's my understanding that Day Treatment generates a lot of revenue which supports, in turn, some of the other mental health programs.

LB: Yes, I believe it's Day Treatment. And that's why we have to keep doing those as government from my point of view. It would be nice for me to say, "Yes, another non-for-profit would hire people and so on." The question, of course, comes, "Can you have controls there. Can you mandate if they hire the people who are in government and so on." Can you? I don't really know that you can legislate other organizations and private businesses. Is there cooperation between all other non-for-profits in the county? If you've been listening to what I scream at my meetings and I become a shrieker. I know there's not, but I can tell you sitting here, if I, as Chair, that I want all the non-for-profits to come and have a meeting with my Committees, at least a third would turn and I may be on great relationships but their people privately would say, "What right does somebody in government have to tell us, when we're not a government agency, to come meet with them." It's a Catch-22.

TR: That's not very good business on their part.

LB: This was my argument, in fact it was in The River ReporterThat was David Hulse's great headline, "You never write, you never call." I don't know if you got to see it.

TR: I don't know. I don't remember that.

LB: It was a true fact, I have it, I was going to send it to somebody who is in Human Services with me. But the point is that, if we don't...

TR: I did see it, I do remember now.

LB: I am going to send that into them as my suggestion for the best headline. But, there's a serious point underlying it. It was true. If we don't coordinate our efforts with the shrinking financial dollar and cut set are going to be a minimum of 25%, and I talk about the somewhat mean-spiritedness of the people. And I don't mean it that way, that's probably a bad choice of words. But we are in a reality check here. When the economy is good, everybody is willing to give, and it's always the middle- class who does the giving. When the economy is bad, as it is now, and it's this way globally. So, I mean, we are just a microcosm. It's not just Sullivan County is in bad shape and the rest of the world is doing great. I mean, there are problems all over. The middle-class who were some of the traditional givers, are now those who are using Food Stamps to supplement their incomes. The taxes are very high in the county.

TR: It's tough to give when you're on Food Stamps.

LB: Exactly, and these were some of the people who were the givers. When you have two people working in a family so nobody has time to donate two days a week for a service agency, so the service agency has to hire someone. Your in a whole cycle here, and now your taking away the crutch of extra government funding - federal, state, and local, because it's a circle and they're spiral or anything you want to say. I don't really care what analogy you use. We are almost in a critical situation. So, it's not that we want to be mean-spirited. We just don't have it. And I think again that plays into the not-for-profits and there's people on the County government who say, "If we privatize it and we give them the money, and we have some control, they're not stuck paying employees insurance, they don't have to guarantee them no layoffs, they don't have their retirements, etc., etc., etc. The traditional role of government, of course, has been to protect the youth, to get a government job. You were protected for life -- a "womb to tomb" philosophy. It's a real socialist approach. But the mindset is still pretty much set. So, do I think we will privatize? There's a lot of pressure to do it. And, by the way, the seminar I went to in Poughkeepsie was on privatization, but not as I look at as privatization. What we call privatization is maybe going to a Recovery Center or a mental health clinic, or something else. They just call that "other agency," or, they used another word. To them, true privatization would be completely getting out of it. Like, not regionalizing the landfill but selling it. You know, that type of thing. I don't see us going into total privatization. It's not a reality, especially at this point in time. And, I don't think anyone's going to make any quick decisions until we see what happens with funding streams, block grants, and so on.

TR: So it's hard to predict at this point, I think you're saying, exactly what programs would be most likely to be privatized or contracted out.

LB: Right, but I don't see us going wholesale private, saying "Well, anything that we can privatize we will." Because I think that balance is critical. We have to have something that will allow us to support the programs that nobody else wants.

TR: Right, there are people, as you know, who need support.

LB: Yes.

TR: The seriously, persistent and mentally ill; people with developmental disabilities, to use some labels.

LB: No doubt about it. They need to have to have the ability to come in and out of the system, in the case of the mentally ill. With supports in place, not with a time limitation, because you can't predict mental illness. You can't predict episodes and it's not fair to take an HMO approach to that either from my point of view. But, you know, they call me a bleeding liberal.

TR: There are two sides to what we could talk about, and what we have been talking about. There is the government, the public interest point of view, and then there's the human client point of view.

LB: I try to balance both. I'll give you my favorite analogy. As an advocate, I look upon myself as the pickador in the bullfight. I could start all the trouble, then I could go to the people in government and say, "Look at all those bleeding bodies out there, do something," and walk away. Point out the problem. Now, being a Legislator, I have to clean up the bleeding bodies. Because everyone is saying to me, "Hey, look at all those bodies out there, and you knew about them before."

TR: Maintaining anonymity, could you give an example?

LB: No, not personality-wise. No, no. But, I think that just dealing in Human Services, I don't micromanage individual cases.

TR: You say people point at the bleeding bodies. What do you mean?

LB: Yeah, well, someone falls through the cracks - it comes up in the newspaper. People contact their Congress people or they contact their Legislators about a problem.

TR: Right.

LB: Sometimes we can resolve it. Sometimes. We have had two cases where there was a slight county glitch. One case it was with a support case and the man's whole work frame and his credit was being questioned. He was in trouble because we hadn't removed something that had been done. That was our fault. I made sure and I requested this man at least have a letter from us acknowledging it was our fault that he could at least show the people involved.

TR: So, you are still an advocate.

LB: Of course.

TR: You said you were an advocate. What agency did you work for? Was that a job title?

LB: No, no, no. I was an advocate.

TR: Privately, I got it.

LB: When my daughter was in - I don't know how far you go back - when Nicky was in the Rhinebeck Country School in Rhinebeck - the man wanted to close the school, it was one of the last privately- owned schools, a proprietary school such as New Hope was, and you know how the State, you've been probably in the State long enough to know - they sort of, as they were closing Letchworth they also closed out the proprietary school and what the man did was, he sold this beautiful Hudson river-front property to Daytop for 8 million dollars. Nobody was told that there were three campuses. One was emotionally disturbed kids who were extremely bright, taking regent classes on a separate campus, and then there were 2 levels of developmentally disabled kids. What he stopped doing was paying his bills, the food was cut down, and if you took your kid out, nobody told anyone that this was a campus for these kids. Alcohol and Drug approved the funding which was another issue completely, from my point of view. Because they certainly did not need an eight million dollar riverfront campus, in an old mansion, etc., etc. But, the fact is that they were just going to close the campus and have all these kids, if you took your kid out he was protected. A group of us banded together. We practically moved in. We got somebody down from the State to eventually monitor it. We lobbied the State. I did some very demagoguery letters, you know, like, 'If my daughter were a murderer, she would have full education, full medical benefits, and be protected, but she is not, she is merely retarded so she is not, you know.'

TR: That got results?

LB: Yes. Actually, we forced the State... One of the parents worked up in Albany in the Government Center. He was pretty high up in Motor Vehicle Bureau, and he just lobbied. He went door to door with my daughter's roommate's father. He and his wife lived up there. And there are about, I don't know if they called us the Dirty Dozen, but there are like a dozen of us. We actually pressured the State into bringing in Deveraux, which was a Pennsylvania firm, and they were also Massachusetts. We got them to make a deal where they couldn't disown, disavow these kids off the campus, and we didn't kill the Daytop deal, but Daytop had to let this campus run until the State funded a new state of the art campus in Red Hook. And so we did in fact do that, yes.

TR: So, your daughter was what got you started in advocacy?

LB: Oh, definitely. I probably was always a do-gooder. You know, I didn't label it. But, this probably formalized it more.

TR: You started out as a mom.

LB: Well I started out as a teacher, too. And I often said I was probably Diogenes with the lamp, looking...

TR: ...for an honest man.

LB: Yes. I wanted to go into social work as a youngster in college. My uncle, who is a professional social worker in New York City said I wouldn't survive. I wanted to join the Peace Corps. They said I wouldn't survive that, either. I was too caring, if you could be that. And it's true, I guess you need a certain detachment. Being a lot older now, I can still be sympathetic but much more rational, and yeah I can deal with these things a lot more.

TR: You've got some perspective with the experience.

LB: I think so.

TR: What did you teach?

LB: Taught Social Studies.

TR: Where?

LB: I taught in Rondout. I got my degree from Syracuse, and I did graduate work at New Paltz.

TR: You have a bachelors, in what?

LB: I have an A.B. I have a dual degree in, well it's Liberal Arts with a major in, basically, Social Sciences and a certificate to teach. Did I ever finish my Master's. I had 33 graduate credits when I had a fight with a professor.

TR: What was the field?

LB: That was for second. That was going back in education. But, I'm actually going to, as soon as I pull some time out of this, go back and start a new Master's Degree in Social Work, Administration, you know.

TR: I imagine that the fight was over a matter of principle or advocacy?

LB: Actually, it was. Did you ever do something and while you were doing it, you know you shouldn't be doing it and you really don't care. Because it's not worth it.

TR: Yes.

LB: I went in. I was going back to teach. I had always some family business, but with my daughter I had taken the time to work with her and as I said I had gotten involved with that groups and wasn't paying strict attention to time guide lines. So, I went back to get recertified and the professor says to me, "You know some of your courses are over l0-l5 years old and you have to retake them." And I said, "Fine." That's rational. I know human psychology has changed. I'm sure some of the courses on social products are changing, and courses and approaches and educational methods, and I had no trouble with a few sociology courses, psychology courses. I wanted that. And he looks at my program and he goes, "Your medieval civilization courses are more than l5 years old, and your laughing, but you can see what I did. I mean, I looked him in the face and I knew that these teachers had to teach courses to keep their history, you know, departments accurate. And I'm a history major and I love history. But, I said to him, "You know, medieval civilization has not changed that much in the last l5 or 20 years, and I explained to him. I said the syllabus is thus, and I quoted it to him. And I said that hasn't changed. And I gave him the chapter on serfdom. And so on, you know. And I said "But the implications for the modern world, which aren't even in the syllabus but how I taught it was such and such. I said, but you are very right. I probably shouldn't be here - and I left. Then I took courses in the teaching of reading, and got recertified elementary. But I never finished that Master's. So, I have like 35 to 36 graduate credits floating around somewhere.

TR: So, you taught social studies and reading.

LB: I didn't teach reading. Actually, I went back into elementary but you needed that for certification. I never went back to full time teaching. I went through about almost a decade of a different kind of advocacy with members of the family, literally becoming ill and developing diseases and needing help. And that got me into advocacy with agencies, and insurance companies, and while my father-in-law was quite ill and my husband was running I went back into my office full time temporarily and that's when I left education.

TR: Speaking of advocacy, I'm aware of a few of the Boards that you have served on, aside from the Legislature. You were on the Community Services Board for a long time.

LB: Yes, I was on the Health Advisory Council for over a decade.

TR: How long ago at Community Services?

LB: Probably two or three years. I don't even know.

TR: Health Advisory for more than a decade?

LB: Hudson Valley Health Systems, yes, until they dissolved. Before I was on the full Community Services Board, I was on the OMR/DD Subcommittee for many years.

TR: Subcommittee of Community Services?

LB: Yeah. And then I joined the full Board. I sat on the Committee on Special Ed which was originally the Committee of the Handicapped for over a decade.

TR: Fallsburg CSE?

LB: Yes. And I worked with the Rhinebeck Association of Parents when my daughter was there.

TR: You have been on the CACHE Board recently.

LB: Yes. I'm not on that anymore. I understood that somebody mentioned that you had some connection with the CACHE Board. Perhaps we will do that after the tape goes off.

TR: Okay.

LB: See, I'm learning.

TR: Rhinebeck Association of Parents?

LB: Yeah, which is out of existence when we moved from the Rhinebeck.

TR: FAMH? Have you ever been involved with FAMH? Friends and Advocates?

LB: No. Not as an official member, No. I'm very familiar with them and I know them. I've been on the Sullivan County Historical Society.

TR: You mentioned a museum earlier.

LB: Yes, I was a curator. I'm a life member, and I'm now on the Board of Directors. I'm on the Board of Directors of New Hope and before I was on their full Board I was a member of their community board.

TR: Now, I get confused in terms of the two New Hopes. One is a women's rehab and for the DD. What's the right name.

LB: New Hope Community, in Loch Sheldrake.

TR: The names are very close to each other.

LB: Yes, in fact, but we were here first.

TR: Okay.

LB: And it's a misnomer It's just like I said to somebody.."I think I'll go up to the Neversink Health Spa and detox for a few days," and they looked at me. I said, "Caffeine and sugar, caffeine and sugar!" So, you know, you have to be very careful with the semantics here.

TR: The ones that you are currently on are New Hope...?

LB: New Hope.

TR: Historical Society?

LB: Sullivan County Historical Society. I resigned from Community Services Board. I felt it was a conflict. I'm no longer on CACHE.

TR: Why did you resign from CACHE?

LB: Because of time constraints, some differences of opinion, and I felt it was a conflict of interest. And also I was asked to take part in the casino board for the Legislators.

TR: Are you on that?

LB: Yes I am, and because I chair or co-chair all the Human Services, I felt that an input into that arena was very important.

TR: Are you still on the Rhinebeck Association of Parents?

LB: That dissolved when they became Deveraux.

TR: Fallsburg CSE?

LB: That, when my daughter turned 2l, I was out of.

TR: You are on the Historical Society, New Hope Community, Casino Advisory Board, in addition to the Legislature.

LB: Yes, I probably have some others I haven't thought about. There is a list somewhere.

TR: I can't think of anything else. We have covered a lot of territory. Do you have any other thoughts?

LB: No. I think your reason for interviewing me was simply because I chair these committees, and I think the purpose of this was to let people know at least the person who is chairing the committees that involve them, is knowledgeable and willing to learn more, not afraid to ask questions, has an open ear and an open door, and really cares about the committees that I chair. That's the message I want to get out.

TR: Good. That sounds like a great note to end on. Thank you very much for the time.

Typescript by Paula Houston